Curse

Chthon · Feb 03, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

If you are a good player, you should have successful PUGs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by khezial tahr

Seriously? What does my skill or skill bar have to do with 7 other people's level of skill?

I think this might make a lot more sense with the understanding that Minion (and many other people in THAY and RARE) form PUGs very differently than most people do. The results are much, much better, at the cost of a lot more time and effort forming the group.

I'm going to stereotype a little here when I say that the formation of a typical PUG goes something like this:
Mending Wammo sends blind invite to SoS Rit sitting in the party search list.
SoS accepts.
Spam time: "2/8 GLFM HM!!! no noobs!!!"
Accepts request from D/A running garbage like AoB or such.
Accepts request from W/Rt running SoS.
Accepts request from Me/E running respectable Fevered Dreams build.
Accepts request from R/Me running BHA+Epidemic, passable, but redundant because of the memser.
Accepts request from A/E who is running perma despite the obvious lack of tank-n-spank compatibility with the rest of the team.
Someone: "We need 2 healers. Kick mes."
Mending Wammo: "Sorry mes."
Kicks mesmer.
Spam: "6/8 GLF monks. HM!!! No noobs!!"
Accepts request from Mo/Me with UA, 6 spot heals, and Rebirth.
Accepts request from Mo/E with HB, 5 spot heals, Rebirth, and Summon Ruby Djinn.
Everyone: "1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1"
No one ever pings their build or asks someone else to ping.
Party zones out, pops cons, fails horribly.

By contrast, the kind of PUG formation Minion is talking about goes more like this:

First, it's usually only a partial PUG. Usually there's 2 or 3 people from THAY, RARE, f-list, etc. in the team. And usually these people are taking care of the key roles. If you've got 2 ER eles and an AP-MoP necro who you know you can count on, that lowers the bar significantly as to what quality is required of the rest of the team. Like Ensign said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Retards with Order of the Vampire, Strength of Honor, and Great Dwarf Weapon on them do tons of damage. You can have a Defy Pain Warrior with 9 in his weapon mastery and he'll beast things.

Second, there's an overall plan for the team build. Not grab-bag randomway. There can be flexibility as in "LF 2x melee and 1x necro or mes" -- any melee class will do, as will either a necro or a mes. Things that don't fit the plan, don't get accepted.

Third, everyone gets asked to ping, one at a time. If they won't ping, they're booted. If they do ping, the following process occurs:

If they are obviously irredeemably bad (like a monk with Summon Ruby Djinn or a SoS warrior), they get kicked. The threshhold for how bad is irredeemably bad varies depending upon how vital their role is. A warrior can get away with being more retarded than a monk or ER ele can.
They are asked if they can run X build that the party needs.
If they say "sure" and load a good variant of the build, they're done and the leader moves on to the next person.
If they load a bad variant of the build or don't even know what it is, the leader hands them off to one of the reliable people who best knows the class (unless the leader himself knows that class best) to give them the build the party needs and teach them the basics of using it. The leader then moves on to the next person.
If, after being given the desired build, they seem too incompetent to run it, they get kicked.
If, after being given the desired build, they seem competent to run it, but need to buy skills or fish weapons from heroes/other characters, their spot is held for them to buy the skills or fish weapons and come back.

Anyone who gets kicked gets replaced through GLF spam until every spot is filled with someone "competent enough" with a passable variant on the desired build for their role in the planned team build.

Obviously, this takes a lot more time than blindly accepting invites and hitting "1 1 1 1 1 1." It also takes more knowledge -- you have to be a good player who can plan the entire team build and explain the individual builds to people. (And that, I think, was Minion's point.) And it takes more effort. "1 1 1 1 1 1" is a hell of a lot easier than putting up with "I'm a perma. I don't have Death Blossom unlocked."

The benefit for that time and effort is fantastic results. A few days ago I did Stygian Veil HM (had both ZB's active) with myself, 2 alliance people, and 5 PUG people. Waltzed through it. With not a few people who had never done DoA before and were only there for the ZB. Waltzed.

It's also a pretty good recruitment tool. I know RARE has picked up several very solid players who joined after being partial-PUG members for UW balanced clears.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I never said you can't deal with pugs. But you imply that you don't want to because of bad actions or people.

Then you have misunderstood my post.

Quote:

I never state that you should bring cons but it does help

Who does that help? Nobody except the impatient players who want their titles before they actually deserve them and that lowers the standard of the game as a whole.

Quote:

and the reasoning is the same: if your going to invest time in a pug, you might as well invest money because its the same thing.

And my reasoning is NO because you dont need to invest money in cons to PUG. How do you think people PUG before EOTN and cons came about?

Quote:

The overwhelming power of PvE skills make it so that people don't need to learn from their mistakes. Even without consets.

At least it takes some level of a skill to use PvE skills well. But it takes 0 skills to double click on a power stone to undo all your mistakes. How does that promote better skills like pulling before charging in?

Stealth Bomberman · Feb 03, 2010, 10:04 PM // 22:04

i think ill stick to h/h and friends. less stressful

HigherMinion · Feb 04, 2010, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Pretty much spot on, Cthon. The rest who rage in pugs or go h/h ARE the title hunters and mean SERIOUS BUSINESS. It's a game that's meant to be played with people. Bots are simply substitutes when we can't find players to be with.

Quote:

Seriously? What does my skill or skill bar have to do with 7 other people's level of skill?

You, sir, if you don't mind me saying- are somewhat foolish and did not read all of my posts. There is a logic to my answers, however Cthon is better at explaining than I am, dumbs it down for the thickies. And we're back to PUGs!

Actually, if you don't mind I think I shall share an anecdote with you all.
Did Foundry yesterday for ZB. Me and one friend, a sin. I went as an ER and found (Rare find, always excited to see one) a PUG ER that could run secondary bonder. The rest of the team slowly filled up---
Rit SoS was easy to get, made him drop PI, because it sucks when everyone takes a maximum of 25~damage. Earthbind replaced it, and it was indeed a good move for removing stress from some mobs.

Our team looked like this by the time I had finished searching and fixing builds (after 26 minutes):
1.ER infuse/bonder
2.ER Secondary bond/infuser
3.Rit SoS/Earthbind
4.Imbagon (important, with spear of redemption due to massive blind spam.)
5.Dervish with avatar of Melandru if I recall correctly. Needed Fleeting stability to work well in areas.
6.Mo/Me echo RoJer, with Dwayna's sorrow to cover enchants party-wide (after a few fails, found a solution to a problem that hurt bad, without kicking the player/changing complete build.)
7.Mo/Me "Cleaner" maintaining SoH on physicals. Signet of Removal is a godly elite when using bonds on everyone. Could not do this without the mass hex/condi removal we had with this build.
8. Gyre

our pet assassin with IaU and assassin's remedy (I think, not sure if he added it in the end)

Anyway, I use an essence with everything I do on my elementalist, and we failed 3 times really early on, after I had used the essence of course. But upon failing, each time I changed one skill in the party; having analyzed the problem (blind, KD spams, interrupts, AoE ench strips) I fixed it on the 4th go we flew.

My question to you "gurus", would you have ragequit had you used your cons and failed on the second section so soon, or fixed the problems and retried as many times as it took to win?

MasterSasori · Feb 06, 2010, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Who does that help? Nobody except the impatient players who want their titles before they actually deserve them and that lowers the standard of the game as a whole.

You can same the same as PvE skills and a myriad of other things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And my reasoning is NO because you dont need to invest money in cons to PUG. How do you think people PUG before EOTN and cons came about?

There is no reason to use the word "NEED" because as I said, nothing is needs to be done if you don't want to do so. If you're willing to invest time but not cons then that is your choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

At least it takes some level of a skill to use PvE skills well. But it takes 0 skills to double click on a power stone to undo all your mistakes. How does that promote better skills like pulling before charging in?

This was never a conversation about skills, this is a conversation about making it more pleasant pugging. You're in this situation because you enjoy pugging, not because you want to teach them anything. If it is, then by all means, do what you will but those who sought to learn in the first place would have done so by then so the likelihood of anyone listening is slim.

There is no point in arguing anything about cons use anymore. There is a difference of opinions and neither of us is going to listen.

Daesu · Feb 08, 2010, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

There is no point in arguing anything about cons use anymore.

With enough cons, you can even make a poor pug look good in PvE.

That is the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

First, it's usually only a partial PUG. Usually there's 2 or 3 people from THAY, RARE, f-list, etc. in the team.

That is a partial PUG, not a real PUG. Not as much fun drama as what a real PUG can provide.

If I want efficiency, I would form a guild group and that's it.

HigherMinion · Feb 08, 2010, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

With enough cons, you can even make a poor pug look good in PvE.

That is the problem.

That is a partial PUG, not a real PUG. Not as much fun drama as what a real PUG can provide.

If I want efficiency, I would form a guild group and that's it.

Well, when I go to do the ZB or ZM, everyone invites guildies first, then asks the Alliance. If no one or few people want to come, then the party opens up to the PUG market. Even though they say a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, I like to give people a chance, as I know certain roles are less important/easier.

I have formed PUGs without my friends before, and the result is rather similar. The only difference is there's no one I can properly trust until halfway through the mission after evaluating everyone's competence and attention to detail.

I only really tend to PUG on my elementalist, because as an ER bond/infuser, I can simply bond everyone and "drag" them through missions they would probably fail in a less organised team. I use EoC, nothing more. People rarely die.

Daesu · Feb 08, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Well, when I go to do the ZB or ZM, everyone invites guildies first, then asks the Alliance. If no one or few people want to come, then the party opens up to the PUG market. Even though they say a chain is only as strong as the weakest link, I like to give people a chance, as I know certain roles are less important/easier.

So do I when I want to form a guild/alliance group and it usually ends up being such. It is not the same when the important roles are already filled by trustworthy people.

Quote:

I have formed PUGs without my friends before, and the result is rather similar. The only difference is there's no one I can properly trust until halfway through the mission after evaluating everyone's competence and attention to detail.

I only really tend to PUG on my elementalist, because as an ER bond/infuser, I can simply bond everyone and "drag" them through missions they would probably fail in a less organised team. I use EoC, nothing more. People rarely die.

That is not a fun build for me but I can play that role in my guild/alliance group if needed.

I PUG to watch the drama and dying is necessary for learning should people make a mistake. If people dont feel the pain from their mistakes, they would not recognize them as mistakes and will repeat them in the future. Death serves an important purpose.

MasterSasori · Feb 08, 2010, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

With enough cons, you can even make a poor pug look good in PvE.

That is the problem.

It's only a problem if you care enough to force them to learn and willing to spend time on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I PUG to watch the drama and dying is necessary for learning should people make a mistake. If people dont feel the pain from their mistakes, they would not recognize them as mistakes and will repeat them in the future. Death serves an important purpose.

What is this drama you're talking about? What do you mean exactly? Watching people learn through their pain of their mistakes?

Elephantaliste · Feb 08, 2010, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If people dont feel the pain from their mistakes, they would not recognize them as mistakes and will repeat them in the future. Death serves an important purpose.

The wise man learns from other's mistakes.

Daesu · Feb 08, 2010, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

It's only a problem if you care enough to force them to learn and willing to spend time on it.

There is no need to "force" anyone to learn and really, you can never force someone to learn if they dont wish to. Learning should come naturally when people realize where they go wrong.

Quote:

What is this drama you're talking about? What do you mean exactly? Watching people learn through their pain of their mistakes?

Watching people learning from their mistakes and become better players can be more satisfying than accomplishing the mission through the use of cons. It is more fun to pug, the natural way.

MasterSasori · Feb 08, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Watching people learning from their mistakes and become better players can be more satisfying than accomplishing the mission through the use of cons. It is more fun to pug, the natural way.

Screw cons, natural went out the window when PvE skills came.

HigherMinion · Feb 08, 2010, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There is no need to "force" anyone to learn and really, you can never force someone to learn if they dont wish to. Learning should come naturally when people realize where they go wrong.

Watching people learning from their mistakes and become better players can be more satisfying than accomplishing the mission through the use of cons. It is more fun to pug, the natural way.

Explain, what is the "natural" way to PUG? Simply a team without cons? Or random builds?

Daesu · Feb 09, 2010, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Explain, what is the "natural" way to PUG? Simply a team without cons? Or random builds?

How about a team without cons and random builds from a PUG player? It is fun to see how some builds perform, good or bad. People want creativity and have their own build, pug is the place to test them out.

HigherMinion · Feb 09, 2010, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

How about a team without cons and random builds from a PUG player? It is fun to see how some builds perform, good or bad. People want creativity and have their own build, pug is the place to test them out.

It's rather obvious when some builds will either suck or conflict with your team idea. Therefore, they change.

Daesu · Feb 09, 2010, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

It's rather obvious when some builds will either suck or conflict with your team idea. Therefore, they change.

Yeah but people dont like to change. Strange, but many really think theirs is the best build even if you disagree with them. Many kids in this game just would not listen to you no matter what you say. You can try threatening them or even kick them, but that would not convince them as to why your way is better.

If he messed up you can always tell him where he went wrong and why he should have listened to you earlier. It is all a matter of giving people the chance to make mistakes, and let them learn for themselves.

Lanier · Feb 09, 2010, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yeah but people dont like to change. Strange, but many really think theirs is the best build even if you disagree with them. Many kids in this game just would not listen to you no matter what you say. You can try threatening them or even kick them, but that would not convince them as to why your way is better.

If he messed up you can always tell him where he went wrong and why he should have listened to you earlier. It is all a matter of giving people the chance to make mistakes, and let them learn for themselves.

Also, I think many dont care if they have the "best" build available. They (like myself) are content to play with builds that are merely "good". I see Pugs as being the place where one can try out new builds concepts or play with "good" builds that are fun to use rather than playing with the "best" builds. I feel as though this is the mentality with many people who Pug, and I dont see anything wrong with it. Having the "best" builds isnt required to win PvE anyway.

The Drunkard · Feb 09, 2010, 04:40 AM // 04:40

There is only one simple step for a better pug:

SYNERGIZE YOUR SKILLS WITH THE REST OF YOUR GROUP!!!

HigherMinion · Feb 09, 2010, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yeah but people dont like to change. Strange, but many really think theirs is the best build even if you disagree with them. Many kids in this game just would not listen to you no matter what you say. You can try threatening them or even kick them, but that would not convince them as to why your way is better.

If he messed up you can always tell him where he went wrong and why he should have listened to you earlier. It is all a matter of giving people the chance to make mistakes, and let them learn for themselves.

I've noticed it seems more to be the adults who play and either think they're awesome OR think that because they're wise and have been playing for a long time, they are never wrong when it comes to a game.

I actually got kicked from a guild because I wanted to bring my ER ele on a vanquish with this guild; and they were stubborn enough not to change one of the two monks. It was incredible...

The "children" know they're stupid, and will take as much advice as they can get, usually. That's what I did way back.

Sankt Hallvard · Feb 09, 2010, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I've noticed it seems more to be the adults who play and either think they're awesome OR think that because they're wise and have been playing for a long time, they are never wrong when it comes to a game.

I actually got kicked from a guild because I wanted to bring my ER ele on a vanquish with this guild; and they were stubborn enough not to change one of the two monks. It was incredible...

The "children" know they're stupid, and will take as much advice as they can get, usually. That's what I did way back.

Whaaaaaaaa....hahaha! While being kicked from the guild seems like quite an exaggeration I can't help but take the "adult" side. Playing a proper monk is likely a lot more fun, challenging and honorable than playing with some ER crap.

I can't speak for anyone but myself but I guess I'm considered an adult compared to your children. I'm willing to change my bar if the pug has specific requests but tbh the only reason I pug is to "play for kicks". I would never change my bar for the sake of efficiency alone. The concept of "speed clears" doesn't appeal to me one bit. The only way to pug is to join something with slim chances of "succeeding" the mission and do your best. This is how I remember pve from years and years ago, failing uw and fow every single time but it was FUN!

The other day a friend and I tried to form a randomway-pug for fow and after 30 mins we didn't find a single guy willing to join. They were all "no speed clear? loool, old farts!" or "no HM? noooobs!"

What a boring bunch of wikifarmers you've all become.